[paper]

you should so join debate

[Absol Fimbulvetr]

And you got hated for what Pap says.
You wonder why? Maybe because of that subjectiveness of yours?
I'm all "oh so true" when reading pap's reply.
THIS IS THE MAIN PROBLEM, AS FAR AS I CAN SEE.

Now what? Banning us two for being against you?
Look it using cool head. And of course, be objective.
Either way, your call.

[astroninja1]

i fully agree with pap and absul

[Beatlemania]

There's a lot of truth in what Paprika says and I often sense a very strong high school-esque clique element amongst those in power. I have spoken to many of the moderators on a friendly interpersonal level and have observed their behaviors in relation to their power. There's a lot of... immaturity. I espied it often with A but she has stepped down and I suppose that... kind of absolves her of it.

Now that I think about it I find that much of it is indeed rooted in immaturity. The mods have built themselves a ring of friends and act in favor of those they like and against those they dislike. I exist in limbo myself as I am friendly with some (such as Nova) and antagonistic with others. And I have, unintentionally, reaped it both ways. Which is, for all intents and purposes, wrong. This may seem unfair but perhaps... you should relegate your main social life to something not involving a place where you hold power. It's the reason many companies discourage managers from getting buddy-buddy or dating those they manage. The peons can socialize as we hold no power over each other. (Indeed my boyfriend and I work at the same job but he and I are peers. There's no unfairness to be had since we're the same.)

Now don't take this as me calling you basement dwellers or whatever. More I think it would be best for the peace of this forum and your own state of mind to expand your social circles. It's always best to keep your personal life and your "work" separated. In this case it's an issue of personal feelings and power. You have to pry them apart by either moving away from the power (as A did) or moving away from the personal interaction (by finding non-VO friends).

[Bernkastel]

Paprika, on 07 March 2011 - 10:20 PM, said:

Now this entire statement I'd like to refute, and I'd like to understand how this applies to things you have done, yet I have never seen this the times I have asked bans to be repealed and suggestions to the way moderation is handled.

Azure's answer to me is pretty much the same every time and it sounds sort of like, "That's a good point and I will consider this over, but I'm not very well acquainted with forum affairs and I'll talk to my mod team about this to clear it up".

If Azure didn't feel it wasn't necessary, then tough luck. If it was ultimately denied after he talked to the crew about it, hey, tough luck. I wasn't a mod back then so I have no other say on that.

All I'll say is that Azure does talk to us about things when he feels he needs our opinions. Bolded for importance. Like I said before, some people here make things sound so incredible that it can't even be taken seriously.

He said it himself that in the past he's been very passive about things and that he's going to try to improve himself in that department, and he has been trying. I'm not sure if you saw it in Clove's thread, but it was stated there. Every time I've brought something up since then, he knew about it. Guy deserves more credit than you give him.

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Because some insulting things were said about Luka, you asked the offending people to quietly cease action and because they simply refused, they were given a suspension (temporary ban) right?

Click here and look at the Vocaloid "Lily." thread from the News Section

You do know that Cross isn't exactly nice about stating her opinions too right? She's offended people in the past plenty of times. People have even reported her and I'm sure she got some talking to. Not exactly the best example to be using. If you want to be fair, at least say both parties were at fault rather than making Luka look like the villain.

I personally can't say much about that issue aside from that because it wasn't my own. All I'll say is that there was action taken for that and they worked it out in the end. I wasn't involved in it at all because I wasn't even home when it happened.

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If Leslie deserved a ban for defying a mod's authority, then I'd say that Luka deserves a ban as well for offending not one person, but everyone reading the Lily thread that got pissed off at her continuous negative remarks about her voice.

Bern, it is fine and dandy to defend your friend, but when you DEFEND YOUR FRIEND, using moderator status to impose judgement is simply abuse of authority.

And now you're just taking things out of context. I defended my friend, yeah, but the ban wasn't on my friend's behalf. Oh no, had it been anyone else, including you, Leslie would have still been suspended. If Leslie had done what I asked, or just pretended to follow orders, she wouldn't have been suspended. Is that clear enough?

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THERE IS TO BE NO INVOLVEMENT OF ANY SORT OF PERSONAL FEELINGS WHEN DEFUSING CONFLICTS ELSE YOU ARE SIMPLY ABUSING POWER.

First you're telling me I don't even care, and now you're telling me not to care? Make up your mind on where you stand. And you do know that a very very good amount of "big" decisions are almost always made by the whole team, including Azure, and not just one member right?

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Also, I took screenshots of the thread because I want to drill this into your heads, as well as everyone else who reads this because if you can't do your job well, I highly suggest you do as A did and step down from Moderating duties.

Way to be paranoid. Just letting you know, not stepping down. Sorry to disappoint. Also bolded part is very very subjective.

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Oh, yes we are going to hold you above everyone else and bitch at you whenever you make a mistake and it is perfectly legitimate to do so, because you are held in a higher position and placed there because you are selected specifically to do your job. And you accepted that job with the knowledge that you are to carry it out well, in exchange for the powers to do so.

Of course. As long as you don't get your panties in a bunch about it and do it civilly, you're welcome to complain to your heart's content. Will mods bother to do something about it? Maybe, if it's a legitimate problem. Are mods obligated to reply? Not at all. Hell, I'm taking the liberty of humoring you by replying to your inquiry.

Just don't forget that your complaints are open to many flaws such as personal opinions, views, and subjectivity (as are mine). Don't think that just because you have something to complain about means that it's absolute truth.

And don't forget, you as a member have a responsibility to behave as one. Remember that~

@Beatle: All I can say is that that would be expected if this was, you know, a business. But it isn't. Mod involvement is important. A mod that doesn't involve themselves with the community in a social aspect won't be able to understand its members. That's my opinion though. A lot of this is already treated like work. If it were up to anyone, do you think we'd stick our heads under the knife like I am right now? No way.

But the only problem with that is that your claim makes it seem like every mod plays favorites. I don't care who you are, if I think you're out of line, I'll do something about it regardless of who you are.

@Absol: So because I'm a mod, I'm not allow to point out my own views and not allowed to state how I feel about things? Puhleaz. Of course this is coming from the guy who thought closing VO would solve everything.

[Nova]

Paprika, on 08 March 2011 - 12:39 AM, said:

@Nova. Whatever work you do in terms of Moderating, I don't see a single bit and that is exactly what I expect most of the time. If you have changed, well fuck; but aside from that it's good you try and stay out of this stuff.

That's exactly how I do my job. I may not catch everything, but I do stumble across some things. I close threads up that are duplicates and stuff. when someone in that other thread asks for something to be deleted or moved, I do it and I don't mention it's me. So I guess this is a compliment? If so thanks, It's glad to know that some people find me doing my job well.

[SeeU]

Like I said earlier, the mods here on VO are so, so defensive.
This is a thread called "Comments and Criticism for the Moderating Team", and once again, all it's dwindled down to are users and mods with their back fur on end, hissing at each other.

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Way to be paranoid. Just letting you know, not stepping down. Sorry to disappoint. Also bolded part is very very subjective.

I wouldn't call Pap paranoid at all. Pretty much all of the threads that have had any form of non-sugarcoated criticism of the moderating team has been locked or deleted. I mean, there was that one thread Nova made yesterday in the BL that's gone today. And, maybe I'm blind, but Absol's VO Revolution thread seems to be missing too. JK, found it.

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You do know that Cross isn't exactly nice about stating her opinions too right? She's offended people in the past plenty of times. People have even reported her and I'm sure she got some talking to. Not exactly the best example to be using. If you want to be fair, at least say both parties were at fault rather than making Luka look like the villain.

So, basically you're saying, because Cross has offended people in the past, her asking others to stop "making hypocritical statements and repeating you don't like her over and over again" (quoted directly from one of her posts) is invalid?
We all know Cross is as blunt as a chopstick, and that she's offended people in the past. But that doesn't mean she can't ask other members to take their negative opinions elsewhere rather than repeatedly posting in a discussion thread.

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Of course. As long as you don't get your panties in a bunch about it and do it civilly, you're welcome to complain to your heart's content. Will mods bother to do something about it? Maybe, if it's a legitimate problem. Are mods obligated to reply? Not at all. Hell, I'm taking the liberty of humoring you by replying to your inquiry.

.............Oh. ಠ _ ಠ
Then I humbly request the moderators on this site to start taking their assigned jobs a little more fucking seriously or pass it on to someone who actually will. Your job as a moderator is to moderate the site and patch things up when they break apart, not sit back and sip lemonade and choose what issues you want to deal with.

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So because I'm a mod, I'm not allow to point out my own views and not allowed to state how I feel about things? Puhleaz. Of course this is coming from the guy who thought closing VO would solve everything.

Not Absol, but it's not like moderators aren't allowed to have opinions. But they can't let their personal opinions interfere with how they hand out sentences.
Like what Pap referenced:

• you tell Leslie to stop posting, she continues with a hearty "lolno", and is suspended shortly afterward
  
• Cross tells Luka and Joy to stop continuously posting in the Lily thread about how much they dislike her, they continue anyways, no action is taken because a.) Cross has been "reported" in the past for offending other users and b.) Luka's involved

[DrExplosion]

Alright, time to fling my poo into the shitstorm. Bear in mind that the tone of this is supposed to be less confrontational than it'll probably come across, but whatever.

Bernkastel, on 08 March 2011 - 01:02 AM, said:

@Beatle: All I can say is that that would be expected if this was, you know, a business. But it isn't. Mod involvement is important. A mod that doesn't involve themselves with the community in a social aspect won't be able to understand its members. That's my opinion though. A lot of this is already treated like work. If it were up to anyone, do you think we'd stick our heads under the knife? No way.

But the only problem with that is that your claim makes it seem like every mod plays favorites. I don't care who you are, if I think you're out of line, I'll do something about it regardless of who you are.

I would argue that moderator "involvement" is counterproductive. A mod should lurk and watch the events unfolding before them, stepping in when necessary. Being involved in the community gets you caught up in all the social currents and cliques, skewing your perspective. You WILL become biased and play favorites in this case, no matter who you are and how objective you strive to be.

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So because I'm a mod, I'm not allow to point out my own views and not allowed to state how I feel about things?

In a word, yes. Because you're a mod, everything you say becomes the words of a moderator rather than a typical user. Leadership in the military works this way, too - soldiers bitch about the orders they're given all the time, often with good reason. Sometimes it's bullshit. But their NCOs have to keep their personal feelings (i.e. "This sucks") to themselves, because as soon as they say it, it becomes the "truth," or even the "law" to those under their authority. A leader gives up their right to be treated as "just one of the guys," just as a soldier in uniform isn't allowed to express his personal opinion in the news.

You seem to be trying to tell people to "get back in line," especially when you refer to your own "orders" (your word, not mine). If you intend to wield authority this decisively, then you cannot be friends with any of those underneath you.

[Bernkastel]

Claire, on 07 March 2011 - 11:39 PM, said:

I wouldn't call Pap paranoid at all. Pretty much all of the threads that have had any form of non-sugarcoated criticism of the moderating team has been locked or deleted. I mean, there was that one thread Nova made yesterday in the BL that's gone today. And, maybe I'm blind, but Absol's VO Revolution thread seems to be missing too.

Correction, threads that turn into "FUKK U MODS!!!11!! UR SO STOOPID AND BAD" get deleted. I already said that a lot of times. As for Absol's thread, it's still there.

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So, basically you're saying, because Cross has offended people in the past, her asking others to stop "making hypocritical statements and repeating you don't like her over and over again" (quoted directly from one of her posts) is invalid?

Isn't that what Pap was doing too by calling out Luka on something that happened once long ago? I didn't say it invalidated, but I also said not to make that such a one sided statement.

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.............Oh. ಠ _ ಠ
Then I humbly request the moderators on this site to start taking their assigned jobs a little more fucking seriously or pass it on to someone who actually will. Your job as a moderator is to moderate the site and patch things up when they break apart, not sit back and sip lemonade and choose what issues you want to deal with.

>implying we don't

You know what a mod's job is here? Delete/move stuff, keep things where they need to be, and make sure no one's doing anything crazy. Actually, that's a mod's job everywhere you go. Every other action a mod takes is out of their own volition. We don't have assignments outside of that, and even if we did, it wouldn't be any different from what we do now. And besides, a good chunk of us do answer and put up with stuff like this, don't we? Well, I can only say that for some. Not every mod jumps into the fire like I constantly do.

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Not Absol, but it's not like moderators aren't allowed to have opinions. But they can't let their personal opinions interfere with how they hand out sentences.
Like what Pap referenced:
you tell Leslie to stop posting, she continues with a hearty "lolno", and is suspended shortly afterward

Errrrrng, wrong. I told Leslie to cut it out (you know, the trolling thing, not actually posting). It went on for a whole page, and it was not the right place for that kind of talk. I told her (pretty seriously, mind you) to stop. The lolno was more like a "fuck off."

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Cross tells Luka and Joy to stop continuously posting in the Lily thread about how much they dislike her, they continue anywayys, no action is taken because a.) Cross has been "reported" in the past for offending other users and b.) Luka's involved

Actually, no one reported anything. Everything that was handled was handled in private (obviously the best way to do it in that sort of case). That's taking things out of context.

@Doc: True enough, but that bias goes both ways. People who complain about something that happened to their friend are going to only see it in a way that doesn't incriminate their friend. I do try my best to keep familiarity out of it though, and in most cases, it works out.

I may seem to be forcing people to believe it the way I see it, but I'm not enforcing them to. I'm really hard pressed about the current situation (just like everyone in this thread is), so it may sound like I'm 100% made up in my mind. We're not forcing anyone to believe things, but at the same time I'm not going to let things go without adding my own perspective on whatever the issue is.

And besides, we're members too. VO isn't a strict enough place that mods have to act like cold and calculative robots with no emotions. Maybe when this place is much larger that'll be necessary, maybe. But it's definitely not a requirement. I mean, can you imagine how many people would be banned already if we didn't add a bit of a personal touch to our work? Nothing would be excused. Imagine getting banned for double posting. "What's that, your internet is bad and that's why it happened more than on a single occasion? Too bad, kthxbai." Imagine being warned for typing in caps. VO isn't that kind of place.

[DrExplosion]

Bernkastel, on 08 March 2011 - 01:53 AM, said:

@Doc: True enough, but that bias goes both ways. People who complain about something that happened to their friend are going to only see it in a way that doesn't incriminate their friend. I do try my best to keep familiarity out of it though, and in most cases, it works out.

The bias works both ways, true, but only one side has any power to act upon that bias. If, for example, someone's pissed off that a moderator banned a friend of theirs, who was SO TOTALLY NOT EVEN DOING ANYTHING WRONG, all they can do is complain about it and, if they're really indignant, leave. If that moderator is pissed off because someone said mean things about one if their friends, they can do considerably more. People will always complain about the actions of those in power, whether those complaints are justified or not. That's just what people do, and they aren't hurting anything by doing so. Those with authority, not so much. A bias on their end is a problem. Power corrupts, as they say, and in the end only those with power can prevent themselves from being corrupted. Sometimes it's tough to remember that leadership (when done properly) is an even more restrictive variety of servitude. [/leadership preaching]

Also, this aforementioned bias is the whole reason I'm trying so hard to stay "neutral" in all the bullshit drama subtext going on here. Can't trust what anyone says.

[Bernkastel]

DrExplosion, on 08 March 2011 - 12:53 AM, said:

Can't trust what anyone says.

Yep, I'm pretty sure no one's going to see eye to eye no matter how much "proof" one side presents to the other. It's never ending. It'll be one issue one day and on another it'll be the same issue with a different face on it.

Would I be okay with more restrictions? I honestly have no clue. Enforcing a stricter forum would be easy, but it'd kill this place and take a lot of the fun out for many. I mean, VO is extremely laid back. People freak out at the addition of minor rules. Enforcement of any kind (justifiable or not) makes people flip tables. While it'd force people who don't like it to leave, they're in the same kind of position right now. This forum isn't a place where you can do whatever you want unfortunately, but it's got a lax atmosphere to it. The last person who got banned was banned because they kept making accounts over and over again to try to post here and lying about who they were (and that was mid last year). Bans are far in between, everyone swears like someone gets banned every single day. Of course, if we were stricter, that would probably be the case for a while.

In the end, everyone's too used to the easy environment and that's pretty much the biggest weakness here.

Addendum: Sometimes people get so ridiculously upset that it gets out of hand (like damn, the person I last suspended said some extremely hateful things about me outside of VO rofl, but I didn't take that into any sort of consideration), and that's pretty much where a lot of the problems stem from too. That's where someone has to step in and do something about it. There's never a perfect way to go about things because someone will always get pissed off, so it's our job to try to pick the best method with the minimal amount of damage. And most of the time, that's deleting things. Sad truth, but some people don't understand that most of the time they're posting things where they're not supposed to or that it's being done to prevent a shit storm. It's not because their statement is true, and even if it is, it isn't the place to be saying it.

[astroninja1]

Bernkastel, on 08 March 2011 - 04:18 AM, said:

The last person who got banned was banned because they kept making accounts over and over again to try to post here and lying about who they were (and that was mid last year). Bans are far in between, everyone swears like someone gets banned every single day. Of course, if we were stricter, that would probably be the case for a while.

i still remember this. in fact im still friends with him on skype /off topic

[Bernkastel]

astroninja1, on 08 March 2011 - 01:22 AM, said:

i still remember this. in fact im still friends with him on skype /off topic

I don't think we're talking about the same guy.

OH WAIT, yeah, him. I forgot about you being our middleguy during that. ;x

[Beatlemania]

It seems to me like you just don't get it, Bern. The fact of the matter is you are NOT a member. A member is one of us civilians. VO is like an ugly little hamlet. Azure is our negligent do-nothing king and the Mods are the governors who keep us wacky peasants (i.e. members) in line. But when the governors start getting too involved with each other and a select few peasants emotionally then favor and dislike begin to trump impartiality. Because impartiality ceases to exist once you become fond of or disdainful of someone or something. You claim to be neutral but you're not. You're too wrapped up in everyone's bullshit. I've seen you come galloping to Luka's defense. And that's not impartiality! That's favoring Luka because you like her. Honestly I think VO needs some severe staff changes to people who aren't caught up in this e-melodrama (the lamest type of melodrama no less).

[Bernkastel]

@Beatle: Isn't a severe mod overhaul being melodramatic in itself? Going by what you said, we'd need new mods every few months because they get used to their fellow members? That's absurd. You're asking too much from a fan-made forum with this sort of atmosphere. There's no forum anywhere (of this size) with any sort of impartiality. If you want it, you're going to have to have a billion rules added just so that it doesn't happen. You'd have to kiss a lot of liberties goodbye. This kind of thread wouldn't even exist. And you would get absolutely no say on anything. Once something is done, that'd be it. Do you really want that?

And where does it say a mod isn't a member? Sure, a mod has responsibilities and those come first, but nowhere anywhere does it say they can't get along with their users. It's a community, interaction is what you're going to get from everyone. Asking us to give that up is lolworthy, sorry. It's down to how you view what a mod should be, it's opinion not fact. If it was a requirement to become a mod here, then yes, we would be 100% accountable for being human. But guess what, it isn't. So that point is immediately moot.

If I stand up for someone, it doesn't mean I'm being impartial (well, technically speaking it is). If someone calls you something or is trolling you, I'm going to tell them they're out of line if you bring it up to me or if I see it. Not complicated, right? I've defended people before who trolled others, people who I know didn't like me, people who heavily disagreed with me, people I don't think very much of. It's on a case by case basis. But of course no one really notices that because that will prove nothing for them in this sort of thing. I've admitted to mistakes before, and I'm sure I'll screw up again in the future.

Me and Luka see a lot of things eye to eye, hence why we tend to agree on a lot of things. If she brings something up to me that needs me to say something, I'm going to say what I want to say. If that's a problem for you, then that's unfortunate.