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VOCALOID Hidden Phonetics old: JPN Phonetics Sil

#16 User is offline   aquatius Icon

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 12:28 PM

This is really useful. And bloody annoying that they didn't tell us about it before!
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#17 User is offline   Adept-eX Icon

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 12:04 AM

Now, if exist an opposite phoneme to [Sil], that can be used for blend phonemes like [Bln] or something similar then I'm going to be really mad o.ó
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#18 User is offline   Prince Syo Icon

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 12:28 AM

View Post4UNme, on 24 December 2011 - 09:50 AM, said:

Sil doesn't work with SeeU, so far.


SeeU already has an equivalent, "ㅇ"
Initial ㅇ = N (silent consonant/glottal stop)
Final ㅇ = Np (retroflex nasal consonant)
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#19 User is offline   AyuRox Icon

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 12:30 AM

View PostAdept-eX, on 27 December 2011 - 07:10 PM, said:

Now, if exist an opposite phoneme to [Sil], that can be used for blend phonemes like [Bln] or something similar then I'm going to be really mad o.ó

Hell, I'm gonna be PO'ed if there is. Not only because it exists but more because they don't f****** tell us this stuff.
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#20 User is offline   Alphonse Icon

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 12:39 AM

Sil doesn't work in V3, does it? [sigh]

EDIT: Nope, I'm just an idiot. =D

This post has been edited by Alphonse: 05 January 2012 - 10:47 PM

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#21 User is offline   Valkyrja Icon

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 01:15 AM

View PostAlphonse, on 27 December 2011 - 05:45 PM, said:

Sil doesn't work in V3, does it? [sigh]


It works for me :L
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#22 User is offline   AyuRox Icon

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 01:20 AM

^ Do you have any VOCALOIDs made for V3?

I'm trying to determine if [Sil] doesn't work for SeeU only or doesn't work for V3 voices
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#23 User is offline   Adept-eX Icon

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 04:09 PM

Ok, I was searching through some Japanese blogs and forums searching about this [Sil] phoneme and I found this: http://hibari.2ch.ne...ing/1322745400/

Quote

前スレ・前々スレで出た発音記号TIPS集をまとめてみる
[-]直前の前の母音をそのまま発音する。二重母音に使用すると前半の母音だけが伸びる
[Sil]何も発音しない。後続の音素は文中の形になる。「っ」や母音脱落の表現に使用可能
[Asp]何も発音しない。後続の音素が語頭の形に戻る
[●_0]母音または子音を無声化する。母音脱落や囁き声、特殊な子音の表現として使用可能


I recognize the phonemes [-] and [Sil], but the phonemes [Asp] and [●_0] are new. Can someone translate the text? I got the feeling there are more things that we didn't know T_______T

---

Edit: I found another discussion which is quite interesting. The people is discussing some uses of these unmentioned phonemes, some techniques, if their work in the English voicebanks and if they work in Vocaloid3. Also other bunch phonemes are mentioned, those ones are: ?、*in、*out

Here is the discussion: http://desktop2ch.ne...ing/1320066697/

Edit 2: Ok, I think that I know was going on. For Vocaloid2 there is another additional phoneme: [Asp]. This one makes the vowels more aspirated affecting its pronunciation. It seems doesn't work for the consonants and when is combined with vowel pairs generates interesting results. The few ones that I found are the next ones:
- When a [Asp] is placed between two vowels causes aspiration of the first vowel and the devoicing of the second vowel. The last one still can be heard, but barely.
- It can be used in a similar fashion to the phoneme [h\] for join choppy vowel combinations, however you have to consider the pronunciation of the first letter will be affected slightly due the aspiration. This seems to be really useful for the choppy combinations were the second vowel is [e] or [o], which doesn't allows you use the phoneme [h\] for fix the choppy vowel combination. Example: a choppy eo combination can be fixed in the next way: [e Asp o][o]

Apparently the Japanese V3 Voicebanks now includes devoiced version of the vowels, and some consonants. For use them you must add a "_0" (The X-Sampa suffix for devoicing) to the phoneme that you want it devoiced. Example: Desu should be typed as [d e][s M_0] in the V3 editor.
Also the phoneme [-] was modified, it seems now sustains the vowel, keeping the stress and avoiding the attack. Also it seems that now it can be used in diphones extending and sustaining the first vowel in different pitches without generate that annoying [aI][aI][aI] seen in V2. I need that a V3 user could confirm this.

Now, about the phonemes [*in], [*out], [?], I don't now if they belong to Vocaloid 1, 2 or 3. Apparently we have a [?] glotal stop all this time, although I don't know in which version of the software it works.
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#24 User is offline   Valkyrja Icon

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 09:34 PM

View PostAyuRox, on 27 December 2011 - 06:26 PM, said:

^ Do you have any VOCALOIDs made for V3?

I'm trying to determine if [Sil] doesn't work for SeeU only or doesn't work for V3 voices


It works for VY1V3 and Yuzuki, so it's probably just SeeU.
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#25 User is offline   AyuRox Icon

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 09:56 PM

View PostAdept-eX, on 28 December 2011 - 11:15 AM, said:

Spoiler


Wow... and again, why the heck don't they tell us this stuff? Cuz this all would've been REALLY helpful a year ago...

And, as far as I know, [*in] and [*out] only apply to MEIKO & KAITO and represent inhale and exhale phonemes, respectively.

And I wanna punch myself in the face, cuz I remember reading on Wikipedia's X-SAMPA article that the symbol for a glottal stop was ?. I never tried it in VOCALOID, I guess cuz I assumed it wouldn't work.

I'm not on my regular computer, but I'm gonna check and see if [?] works with V2 & V1 or if its just a V3 thing.

[edit]
ok, so evidently, [Asp] and [?] are V3 things, cuz neither worked in V1 or V2. I've yet to check [x_0], but my guess is that its also a V3 thing.
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#26 User is offline   aquatius Icon

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 12:37 AM

[?] is very useful, in particular for splitting up adjoining vowels but also for use with other consonants. For example, [k ?] can be used for a less aspirated /k/ sound or even a /q/ sound.
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#27 User is offline   Despair Icon

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:46 AM

>Learned about Sil and Asp today.
>Has had the program for a year now.
I feel like I've been under a rock.

Asp works amazing with Japanese but is limited with English.
Although Sil sounds wonderful with English to an extent. If you make a loid say Fret and separate the f and r you hear a much more clearer pronunciation.
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#28 User is offline   Virtual > Real Icon

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 07:29 AM

View PostAyuRox, on 28 December 2011 - 10:02 PM, said:

[edit]
ok, so evidently, [Asp] and [?] are V3 things, cuz neither worked in V1 or V2. I've yet to check [x_0], but my guess is that its also a V3 thing.


Asp and ? are working for my Luka and Gakupo.
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#29 User is offline   Adept-eX Icon

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:59 PM

View Postaquatius, on 05 January 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

[?] is very useful, in particular for splitting up adjoining vowels but also for use with other consonants. For example, [k ?] can be used for a less aspirated /k/ sound or even a /q/ sound.

Did you do the test? If that's the case I would like that you can post a sound sample for compare.

View PostLamp-Ara, on 05 January 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

Asp works amazing with Japanese but is limited with English.
Although Sil sounds wonderful with English to an extent. If you make a loid say Fret and separate the f and r you hear a much more clearer pronunciation.

Yeah! So [Sil] also works for the English Vocaloids. Cool!

View PostVirtual > Real, on 05 January 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

Asp and ? are working for my Luka and Gakupo.

What?! Really?? Can you post a sound sample? Please.
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#30 User is offline   Falsett Icon

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 07:30 PM

Where do people find out about this stuff.
I feel like I've learned more VOCALOID in a couple minutes than I would've learned in a month.

Also, the [Sil] DOES work with SeeU.
Tried with TOWER.vsqx at the certain point here:
ASUFARUTO o kuroku someru
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