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Introduction and a few questions about Tonio

#1 User is offline   andi Icon

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 06:10 AM

Hello,
my name is Andi 39 years old and I´m from germany. I love powermetal like rhapsody for example. In order to replace the missing singer of my home studio project I stumbled over vocaloid Tonio on youtube. Espacialy in the song starlight keeper in the refrain parts he got my interest.
So I got Tonio and hopefully would get this amazing sound to complete my upcoming songs.
Like recommended I first started with a cover of rhapsody´s emerald sword song.
The first problems came as i typed in the phonetics which i found in the user word dictionary.
I typed in "for the king for the land " copied the phonetics into each note and Tonio began to sing something like that: " wasse ju wasse o oh an feju"
Sounded like a japanese robot sitting on the toilet but the language was set to english.
I read every vocaloid has its own phonetic specialities but I didn´t expect this.
I badly need some advise espacialy for this vocaloid.
How can I learn it fast and good to archive the most realistic sound?

Thank very much
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Posted 11 January 2018 - 06:35 AM

View Postandi, on 10 January 2018 - 11:10 PM, said:

Hello,
my name is Andi 39 years old and I´m from germany. I love powermetal like rhapsody for example. In order to replace the missing singer of my home studio project I stumbled over vocaloid Tonio on youtube. Espacialy in the song starlight keeper in the refrain parts he got my interest.
So I got Tonio and hopefully would get this amazing sound to complete my upcoming songs.
Like recommended I first started with a cover of rhapsody´s emerald sword song.
The first problems came as i typed in the phonetics which i found in the user word dictionary.
I typed in "for the king for the land " copied the phonetics into each note and Tonio began to sing something like that: " wasse ju wasse o oh an feju"
Sounded like a japanese robot sitting on the toilet but the language was set to english.
I read every vocaloid has its own phonetic specialities but I didn´t expect this.
I badly need some advise espacialy for this vocaloid.
How can I learn it fast and good to archive the most realistic sound?

Thank very much


Tonio is known for being very robotic without a lot of TLC. He is probably one of the hardest vocaloids to use because he was mainly designed to sing opera. However if you want realistic sounds you will need to play a lot with his PIT, PBS, DYN, and his Breathiness settings. Also remember he was programed in english so if you are trying a different language it is not going to work or sound like a foreigner. for the phrase "for the king for the land" in english it should be

[f O@] [D V] [kh I N] [f O@] [D V] [l0 { n d]

however if that is not working you can try

[f O: r] [D @] [kh i: N] [f O: r] [D @] [l0 { e n d]

Just be careful with the [@] sound. Tonio has a known glitch where if it goes above C#3 it will crash the entire system. I recommend checking out the wiki for a starting reference.


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Posted 11 January 2018 - 07:27 AM

View Postsleepysheep7, on 11 January 2018 - 06:35 AM, said:

Tonio is known for being very robotic without a lot of TLC. He is probably one of the hardest vocaloids to use because he was mainly designed to sing opera. However if you want realistic sounds you will need to play a lot with his PIT, PBS, DYN, and his Breathiness settings. Also remember he was programed in english so if you are trying a different language it is not going to work or sound like a foreigner. for the phrase "for the king for the land" in english it should be

[f O@] [D V] [kh I N] [f O@] [D V] [l0 { n d]

however if that is not working you can try

[f O: r] [D @] [kh i: N] [f O: r] [D @] [l0 { e n d]

Just be careful with the [@] sound. Tonio has a known glitch where if it goes above C#3 it will crash the entire system. I recommend checking out the wiki for a starting reference.



Thank you very much for the fast answer. Perhaps Tonio isn´t the best choice for the beginning if he is so hard to tune. I´ve heard through a lot of singers and couldn´t imagine how this should work with heavy metal. They all sounded like mickey mouse to me. Which vocaloid from v2-3 would you recommend for this type of music?
And what do you mean with crashing the system if the notes are too high? this shouldn´t affect my windows , should it?

One little last question before I begin studying the wikis, please-
The interface sice of the v3 editor is way too small for my big monitor. Do you know how to make it bigger without changing the resolution of the system itself?
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Posted 11 January 2018 - 09:52 AM

View Postandi, on 11 January 2018 - 12:27 AM, said:

Thank you very much for the fast answer. Perhaps Tonio isn´t the best choice for the beginning if he is so hard to tune. I´ve heard through a lot of singers and couldn´t imagine how this should work with heavy metal. They all sounded like mickey mouse to me. Which vocaloid from v2-3 would you recommend for this type of music?
And what do you mean with crashing the system if the notes are too high? this shouldn´t affect my windows , should it?

One little last question before I begin studying the wikis, please-
The interface sice of the v3 editor is way too small for my big monitor. Do you know how to make it bigger without changing the resolution of the system itself?


ahaha, yeah I have heard that alot about vocaloids sounding like mickey mouse. I tend to hear when people listen to the japanese vocaloids due to the japanese producers tuning particularly high. (IA and Miku seem to be the faces of that)


To be honest most of the V2 english Vocaloids are moderate to advanced for tuning due to either being a niche style (Prima and Tonio) or bad/outdated recording styles. (Sweet Ann, Big Al, and Sonika)

As for a vocaloid that might work with heavy metal, that is a difficult question because it will come down to taste. Yohioloid is the first I think of but he is a mid level english vocaloid due to his bored tone. It would mean you would also have to play a lot with PIT and PBS settings. (He also apparently has mispronounced phonemes since Yohioloids voice actor Yohio is from sweden and english is not his native language. I personally have only found mispronounced phonemes on the transition of [s] to [j] where the [s] becomes a [S] sound. In non technical terms it means that he pronounces his s sound like in the word "snake" to an "sh" sound like in the would "should" whenever a y sound follows an s sound. If that makes sense.) Another option would be Vocaloid Ruby. She has an american accent and uses the latest recording style along with V4 instead of V2 or V3. Though from what I have heard she can be tough to make sound well. (I only have Dex and Diana of the new V4 engloids) You could also try Cyber Songman as well since he is the most up to date Vocaloid for the english side. Or if you want to really stretch out you could try Mary Oak from Alter/Ego since she was designed for death metal. (Just be ready to a lot more tuning and mixing problems because Alter/Ego in its current form is nowhere near as powerful as Vocaloid)

As for the glitch it is only in the Tonio bank. there is something about how Zero-G programed Tonio's [@] phoneme that once it goes past C#3 on the editor it crashes the entire program. If I understand it correctly, it is because he doesn't have any recordings of the phoneme that high so the vocaloid editor doesn't know what to do and locks up. To resolve the issue you just have to replace [@] with [V] or some other a sound phoneme.

For you last question do you mean how to make the piano roll bigger? If that is the case just hit the maximize button on the music editor/piano roll on the upper right hand side. When you hit the button it will let the piano roll take over the screen in the editor and hide the track editor. (track editor is where you add in another track for harmonies, add background music in if you wanted, or change the tempo for the piano roll)
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Posted 11 January 2018 - 01:16 PM

Hello! Welcome to VO!

You're in the right place for VOCALOID help! It seems Sleepy has it taken care of.

About phoneme input- when using an English singer and inputting English lyrics into the VOCALOID editor, it will automatically create the phoneme combinations you need for that word. You don't have to change the phonemes unless you want to correct or adjust the pronunciation. (For example, the word "open" may be registered as [@U] [p U n], but I typically prefer [@U] [p e n].)

It may help to have a reference of all the phonemes available. There may be a chart in the manual, but if not, there are some available online, such as this one.

Due to being designed to sing opera, Prima, I've heard, may be excellent for melodic metal. I imagine the same may apply to Tonio. If you plan to create vocals with long notes and/or phrases and little to no cut up or short words, perhaps Tonio will suit nicely.
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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:34 PM

View PostMove->Forward, on 11 January 2018 - 01:16 PM, said:

Hello! Welcome to VO!

You're in the right place for VOCALOID help! It seems Sleepy has it taken care of.

About phoneme input- when using an English singer and inputting English lyrics into the VOCALOID editor, it will automatically create the phoneme combinations you need for that word. You don't have to change the phonemes unless you want to correct or adjust the pronunciation. (For example, the word "open" may be registered as [@U] [p U n], but I typically prefer [@U] [p e n].)

It may help to have a reference of all the phonemes available. There may be a chart in the manual, but if not, there are some available online, such as this one.

Due to being designed to sing opera, Prima, I've heard, may be excellent for melodic metal. I imagine the same may apply to Tonio. If you plan to create vocals with long notes and/or phrases and little to no cut up or short words, perhaps Tonio will suit nicely.


Hi,
yes tonio sounds great in the long upper notes but I have a problem. He seems to sing further the standart "ohhh" though i deleted it and pasted the right phoneme into the note. What can I do to solve this? Could it be a problem with my midinotes? I imoprted them from fl studio as a track and then was adviced to normalize the overlapping notes. So I did.


I tried a new song and typed in the notes myself. Now he sings some words but not the ones I entered. He makes something like " I feel you" out of my typed in words "for the land"

realy strange
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Posted 12 January 2018 - 11:40 PM

That is peculiar. I haven't worked with Tonio, so I would not know if this is just an issue with him or something else.

Would you be able to show us what the phoneme combination is for your inputted words? "I feel you" should be something like this: [aI] [f i: l] [j u:]
"For the land" may be something like this: [f O@] [D V] [l0 { n d]
(These are just default phoneme combinations--you don't have to use these exact ones.)

Of course, it is not abnormal for English VOCALOIDs to sometimes mispronounce some things. English is a pretty complex language with many different phonetics for similar and different letter combinations. "Live" as in "to live" and "live" as in "live on TV" are the same letters but different sounds, for example. In this case, we would need phonetic manipulation to make sure the right "live" is sung.

But even in cases where the system doesn't misinterpret it as another word it can be a good idea to adjust the phonemes to make sure the words are clear.

Are there any words before I? If notes are close enough, consonants may carry over to the next word to make it sound different. For example, the phrase "Off or on" may sound like "Offer on" if someone is just quickly saying it.

If you have a word that ends in an "f" sound before "I", this may be causing it to sound like "for." One solution to fix this would be to put a small note in between these two and input the [Sil] phoneme.
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Posted 12 January 2018 - 11:58 PM

View PostMove->Forward, on 12 January 2018 - 11:40 PM, said:

That is peculiar. I haven't worked with Tonio, so I would not know if this is just an issue with him or something else.

Would you be able to show us what the phoneme combination is for your inputted words? "I feel you" should be something like this: [aI] [f i: l] [j u:]
"For the land" may be something like this: [f O@] [D V] [l0 { n d]
(These are just default phoneme combinations--you don't have to use these exact ones.)

Of course, it is not abnormal for English VOCALOIDs to sometimes mispronounce some things. English is a pretty complex language with many different phonetics for similar and different letter combinations. "Live" as in "to live" and "live" as in "live on TV" are the same letters but different sounds, for example. In this case, we would need phonetic manipulation to make sure the right "live" is sung.

But even in cases where the system doesn't misinterpret it as another word it can be a good idea to adjust the phonemes to make sure the words are clear.

Are there any words before I? If notes are close enough, consonants may carry over to the next word to make it sound different. For example, the phrase "Off or on" may sound like "Offer on" if someone is just quickly saying it.

If you have a word that ends in an "f" sound before "I", this may be causing it to sound like "for." One solution to fix this would be to put a small note in between these two and input the [Sil] phoneme.

Thank you for this tips. They sure will help in future. I solved the problem now. I just tiped in the normal word directly into the notes an -- yes !!!! it was translated into the right phonemes and sounds nice. It seems to be a problem with the user word directory which I used first to convert it.
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Posted 13 January 2018 - 06:41 PM

Hi friends. Slowly but constantly I´m getting used to the program. But there are still many questionmarks to solve.
For example Tonio is swallowing the "p" in the word "open" which is tiled to two different notes.
I´m also wondering how I could open Tonio´s mouth a bit more and let him sing with more breast instad of the headvoice.
Some more growling parts would be also very nice.
I´m sorry for the many questions but this is absolutely newland for me.
The song is sang over c3 and Tonio sounds like a church young.
What kind of plugins of vocaloid and which vsts would help me getting good results?
Or perhaps you could tell me where to download some vsq perhaps I could learn from that a bit.

https://youtu.be/CRrzuukWj0k?t=119

At TC 2:00 you can hear what it should sound like.

Thank you.
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Posted 13 January 2018 - 08:27 PM

Continuing to experiment and play around with the program will help you become more familiar with the program!

For the "p" phoneme that Tonio is "swallowing," you can try switching the respective phoneme to [ph] and/or try adjusting the Velocity of the note.
Another option is to separate the note and have the p phoneme be by itself in a note, like this:
Spoiler


To have Tonio sound more open, you can try increasing BRI/Brightness.
To have his tone sound deeper, you can try increasing GEN/Gender Factor.

VOCALOID2 does not support the new Growl parameter that VOCALOID4 features, but you can use separate effect tools to emulate growling, and/or perhaps something within the VOCALOID2 Editor itself. Unfortunately, I haven't done this specifically so someone else would be able to help you more than I would.
I would recommend trying out PIT/Pitch Bend at the beginning of a note to create a "rising up" effect if you would like to create emphasis on that word. Be sure to adjust PBS/Pitch Bend Sensitivity, as by default it will do very little.

A reverb effect on the voice can be good to have the voice sound "more full" or to add a neat atmosphere.

VocaDB has a tag for VSQs available if this might help. It is, however, a lot to look through, but you can add other tags and filters (such as selecting Lyrics: English or adding the tag: metal.)
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Posted 18 January 2018 - 10:45 AM

Hi friends.
Perhaps somebody knows how to fix my problem.
The word mountains which is devided into two notes isn´t articulated right.
Tonio just sings "u" for moun and "o" for tains.
The word "sword" is articulated "sod".
The "w" is missing and is it possible to change the very tight "o" into an more open letter between "o" and "a" ?
The "g" in the world "gold" is silent to and sounds more like "old". I wasn´t able to fix that with the velocity.

Where can I find a good tutorial for editing the phonemes?
Thx
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#12 User is offline   수연 <Suyeon> Icon

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 11:19 PM

Disclaimer: I'm using Oliver in V4, so YMMV...

For "mountains" go to note property to change the phonetic for both notes.

mount: m aU n
tains: t e n z or th e n z depending on if you need an aspirated T sound.

For "sword" the standard pronunciation (at least in American English) is s O@ d - we don't use the W, but if you want to use the W, then add it to the phonetics like so s w O@ d

The softness of the G sound may be helped with the gh phoneme or by emphasizing the dynamics right at the beginning of the note. It's not a guarantee since Tonio is a British voice. British voices have softer consonants than Americans.

As for a sound between 'o' and 'a,' the closest equivalent may be the schwa-like - V.

For a visual:

Spoiler


Please pardon my sloppy Paint job
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Posted 19 January 2018 - 12:14 AM

Thank you very much.
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Posted 19 January 2018 - 01:01 AM

You're very welcome. As for your prior statement...

Quote

I´ve heard through a lot of singers and couldn´t imagine how this should work with heavy metal. They all sounded like mickey mouse to me. Which vocaloid from v2-3 would you recommend for this type of music?


The voice that's made specifically for rock and metal is V-Flower, but she is a Japanese voice. Another contender is Lily - but again, she is Japanese.

https://www.youtube....h?v=T9iFcb5yfAc

Tonio and his female counterpart Prima would work for operatic/melodic metal, but as stated by other users, they are difficult to start with due to being more locked to their genre specification. Oliver has been used for melodic metal as well, but his range is more limited, being voiced by a 13 year old boy. Like Tonio and Prima, he's geared towards the classical, but is a little easier to make sing outside of his choir specification.

I don't have any experience using these vocaloids so, take my suggestions with a grain of salt...

- Megurine Luka has been used in heavy rock/metal, but her latest library in V4 is considered difficult to use, unwieldy, and... there's only 1 really good one out of the 4 main vocals (English Straight). While her V2 voice is nice, it will be on the lower end of quality compared to other English banks of the time due to having missing data in the English library.

- Big Al will be easier to manipulate than Tonio due to not being genre specific. He is more bass/baritone. Sweet Ann is his female counterpart.

- Yohioloid is voiced by a teenage rock singer (YOHIO), but he's considered soft for a supposed power vocal. He may have some pronunciation issues due to being a non-native, but I find him the most understandable without subtitles.

- Gakupoid is another voice created by a rock vocalist (GACKT), but... Japanese. If we're lucky, he might get consideration for an English voice.

- Hiyama Kiyoteru is in the same boat as Gakupoid: has a voice that's good for rock, but isn't English.

- Cyber Songman is made to be used for pretty much any genre you throw at him, is English (American accented), and is up to date, phonetically. His counterpart is Cyber Diva, but I know you don't want "Minnie Mouse" sounding vocals.

- Dex and his counterpart Daina can be used for rock and they are considered "beginner friendly." They are also among the cheapest English voices you can buy.
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Posted 19 January 2018 - 01:23 PM

Thank you for the great infos.
I´ve heard DEX before and I Like him very much especialy in the song it´s my life. Perhaps a litle bit too well-behaved to get the heavy sound supported the right way. Is there a possibility to check him out before bying?
Do you use any plugins from vocaloid?
Shouldn´t there exist one for easily humanizing the voices for example?

Something else:

I´ve got a new problem to solve.
The word battle does´nt split automaticaly into two notes.
How can i devide this to get the correct articulation?

Also I´ve got a probleme with the little note with the "-" as word in it to smoothen the beginning of the next note. Normaly it should make a little pitshifting effect to the next note but I can´t hear any difference.

The little note with the "h" in it behind a note you want to stretch the vocals out works fine.
At least quite often. Sometimes it cuts of the beginning of the next note.
Is there another possibility to tweak the length of the vocals?
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